Senna, le film

Pour tous les francophones, voici le lieu qui vous permettra de discuter avec tous les fans de Formule 1, GP2, Formule 2, IndyCar, IRL, WRC, GT etc..

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Re: Senna

Messagede sheon le 01 Juin 2011, 09:55

Y en a un qui suit !
Si j'avais souvent répété que je désirais mourir dans mon lit, ce que je voulais vraiment dire par là, c'est que je voulais me faire marcher dessus par un éléphant pendant que je ferais l'amour. Les Fusils d'Avalon, Roger Zelazny.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Aym le 01 Juin 2011, 09:56

Nan, deux, mais tout le monde n'est pas apte à décoder de l'humour subtil et fin (cmb :D)

edit : oh putain, un haut de page, en plus :oops:
L'informatique n'est pas une science exacte, on n'est jamais à l'abri d'un succès
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Re: Senna

Messagede RF1 fan le 02 Juin 2011, 18:22

J’ai vu le film cet après-midi.

Le film est très caricatural avec Prost néanmoins ce film est très bien pour les non initiés et je pense aussi que le réalisateur et le scénariste ont un point de vue anglosaxon sur la question.Voilà tout je pense,pour eux le portrait de Prost et de Balestre est juste car ils ont grandi en regardant les Gp sur la BBC(James Hunt pouvait etre très caricatural avec les français) et pas sur TF1.Je note aussi que la presse française spécialisée est très critique mais en Angleterre ou aux USA le film a été assez bien reçu.Des médias généralistes comme Canal+ ont aprécié le docu.

PS:le moment le plus impressionant pour moi est celui où Ratzenberger dialogue avec son ingé avant de partir pour son dernier run...

"Les gens ne s'imaginent pas ce que je réussis à faire avec cette voiture"
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Re: Senna

Messagede Alfa le 02 Juin 2011, 20:41

La Simtek etait une bouze, mais plutot moins desastreuse que la Pacific si je ne m'abuse.
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Re: Senna

Messagede BWT le 03 Juin 2011, 01:43

Alfa a écrit:La Simtek etait une bouze, mais plutot moins desastreuse que la Pacific si je ne m'abuse.

La première version de la Pacific avait un "loup". Le nez haut provoquait une instabilité chronique du train avant, rendant la monoplace incroyablement instable et dangereuse. En 1994, la voiture la plus "anxiogène" pour le pilote devait très certainement être cette Pacific...

Quant à la Simtek, elle a passé bien plus souvent l'étape des pré-qualifications que la Pacific. Il faut dire que la S941 n'était pas réellement la première monoplace conçue par Simtek puisque la S921 d'Andrea Moda en 1992 était déjà l'oeuvre de Simtek...
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Re: Senna

Messagede schumi84f1 le 03 Juin 2011, 07:20

la monocoque en fibre de carbone de la SImtek était à l'époque faite par une entreprise française : la SNPE, société qui avait sponsorisé Alesi jusqu'en F1 (Tyrrell)
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Re: Senna

Messagede Stéphane le 03 Juin 2011, 11:47

BWT a écrit:
Alfa a écrit:La Simtek etait une bouze, mais plutot moins desastreuse que la Pacific si je ne m'abuse.

La première version de la Pacific avait un "loup". Le nez haut provoquait une instabilité chronique du train avant, rendant la monoplace incroyablement instable et dangereuse. En 1994, la voiture la plus "anxiogène" pour le pilote devait très certainement être cette Pacific...

Quant à la Simtek, elle a passé bien plus souvent l'étape des pré-qualifications que la Pacific. Il faut dire que la S941 n'était pas réellement la première monoplace conçue par Simtek puisque la S921 d'Andrea Moda en 1992 était déjà l'oeuvre de Simtek...


Juste qualif, il y avait pas assez d evoitures pour organiser des préqualifs.
Ouais_supère a écrit:Stef, t'es chiant
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Re: Senna

Messagede Alfa le 07 Juin 2011, 13:53

BWT a écrit:
Alfa a écrit:La Simtek etait une bouze, mais plutot moins desastreuse que la Pacific si je ne m'abuse.

La première version de la Pacific avait un "loup". Le nez haut provoquait une instabilité chronique du train avant, rendant la monoplace incroyablement instable et dangereuse. En 1994, la voiture la plus "anxiogène" pour le pilote devait très certainement être cette Pacific...

Quant à la Simtek, elle a passé bien plus souvent l'étape des pré-qualifications que la Pacific. Il faut dire que la S941 n'était pas réellement la première monoplace conçue par Simtek puisque la S921 d'Andrea Moda en 1992 était déjà l'oeuvre de Simtek...

Andréa Moda :D :eek: Ca c'était de l'equipe de pro :D
Faudra que tu nous en dessine une pour voir :lol:
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ouais_supère le 07 Juin 2011, 15:16

Ça parle pas mal de Senna, sur le site Autosport, pour les abonnés.
Ça intéresse des gens ou pas?
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ghinzani le 07 Juin 2011, 15:36

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Sa seule qualif...
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Re: Senna

Messagede Maverick le 07 Juin 2011, 15:49

Ouais_supère a écrit:Ça parle pas mal de Senna, sur le site Autosport, pour les abonnés.
Ça intéresse des gens ou pas?

Ouai.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ouais_supère le 07 Juin 2011, 19:00

Ok, laissez-moi un tout petit peu de temps, y en a plusieurs.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ouais_supère le 07 Juin 2011, 19:11

From the archive: 1985 Portuguese GP

AUTOSPORT's from the archive feature makes a one-off return this week to celebrate the release of the Senna movie. The event in question? It had to be the great Brazilian's first grand prix victory, at Estoril in 1985. Enjoy...

By Nigel Roebuck

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To cast yourself onto a wet race track, along which grand prix cars are proceeding, is not truly the action of a thinking man. But if you were a Lotus mechanic at half past four last Sunday afternoon, you were not a thinking man. Your cars had won only once since the days of Mario and Ronnie, and that was out of the blue. Since then, they had often taken pole, often led, but this race – this meeting – had been dominated by a Lotus, first to last.

Ayrton Senna's victory on Sunday will be remembered as a classic. From the start he was in a race of his own, and made no mistake worthy of the name in conditions so appalling as to catch out a man of Alain Prost's quality. The Brazilian gave the impression that he could have gone on like that indefinitely. And he probably could have. It was a mesmeric performance.

He faced no challenge, as such. His team-mate Elio de Angelis ran second for much of the way, falling back to fourth with a deflating tyre after going briefly off the road. Immediately before, the increasingly confident Michele Alboreto had taken the Ferrari past into the runner-up spot, and Patrick Tambay's better-than-expected Renault finished third.

After starting from the pitlane, a legacy of a mistake on the warm-up lap, Nigel Mansell scored the first Williams point of the year with a courageous drive to fifth, and Stefan Bellof delighted Ken Tyrell with an unexpected sixth.

There were but three other classified finishers, Derek Warwick's Renault and Stefan Johansson's Ferrari, both delayed by pitstops, and Piercarlo Ghinzani's Osella. There were no points for McLaren and none for Brabham.

In Sunday's conditions, the phrase 'tyre war' was redundant. You were on Goodyears, or you were not racing. If you were on Pirellis – even if you were Nelson Piquet in a Brabham-BMW – you were pitifully off the pace and wasting your time. In the circumstances Ghinzani, ninth, deserves some kind of award for valour. Not since the wet race at Zandvoort in 1971, when it was Goodyear's turn to be humbled by Firestone, have we seen a grand prix so completely split into two classes. Or maybe there were three – Pirelli, Goodyear and Senna.

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Qualifying

The talk - inevitably - was of Ferrari. On Friday morning all conversation seemed caught up with he firing of Arnoux and the hiring of Johansson. A lot of people went to shake Stefan's hand to wish him well, for he is a popular fellow at last presented with a car worthy of him. Better than that, he was presented with tyres on which to drive it.

"It should give heart to all the young guys with their sights on Formula 1," commented Keke Rosberg, another who had to wait too long. "Because here is someone who has got a top drive on merit. Nothing to do with money – nothing to do with anything but talent. So it can still be done."

At the same time there was general agreement that Arnoux's dismissal could have been handled somewhat better. There were suddenly expressions of sympathy for 'poor old Rene,' some of them from mouths never previously heard to utter a word in Arnoux's favour. Opportunities to slag off the ruthless Commendatore are rarely passed up.

There were others too, friends of Arnoux's in some cases, who expressed a certain relief. The Frenchman has been through a confused time, off-form for the last six months, perhaps stale from too much testing, who knows? Unable to match Alboreto, he might have put too much call on sheer bravery. At least he had not hurt himself.

A week in politics, they say, is a long time. How about this business? While Arnoux decided to go to ground and take a couple of months off to consider his future, Johansson took yet another incredulous look at the prancing horse patch on his overalls. "I have to keep doing it," he grinned. "It still hasn't really sunk in." A week earlier he had been a Toleman driver with no opportunity to race.

What a time, we all said, to be joining Ferrari with the car a front-runner again. Aboreto is firm in the belief that he could – should – have won in Rio, and before practice began many considered the Italian to be the favourite for Estoril.

Wrong. We left Zolder last year believing that the C4 was a genuine challenge to McLaren, and we were wrong that time, too. "The new car was fantastic in Brazil," Alboreto mused. "But here, it feels like a different car. The traction is poor out of the corners, and it's difficult to balance it properly – understeer in, oversteer out. It feels nervous. We are short of downforce."

As in Rio a Lotus was quickest on the opening day, but this time the advantage was maintained through the second. Senna, stunning in the Toleman here last October, was the clear pace-setter in both timed sessions.

His team-mate de Angelis was fastest on Friday morning, but thereafter Senna was in control, the 97T visibly more stable than anything else through the fourth gear right-hander at the end of the pit straight. Through the startline speed trap, Senna's 192.434mph was beaten only by the inevitable Brabham-BMW of Piquet – but Nelson's best lap was 2.5s away. The Lotus, in short, was strong in all departments, its driver more than capable of going with it.

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Senna's first pole position, then, on only his second weekend with Lotus. On Friday the elements helped a bit, occasional splashes of rain, then a brief but fierce downpour ensuring that the Brazilian's time was beyond reach, but on Saturday his first flying lap settled the issue. Later in the session he did one more, and that would also have been good for the front row.

Times were generally slower than expected, the Lotus only 0.7s inside Piquet's pole time of 1984. True, those ugly rear winglets have been banned, but against that, the whole of the previously bumpy pit straight has been resurfaced. Senna was not much inside the time he set during post-race Toleman testing last Autumn.

By general consensus, the track was slippery throughout the qualifying. "It's very dirty off the line," Piquet remarked. "And it doesn't seem to have gained much grip this time – not like last year. Then again, maybe it's something to do with my tyres." Nelson's Pirelli qualifiers did not please him.

Warwick felt the same way: "In the race we really should get some rubber down. And it wouldn't surprise me if the last part of the race is run at close to qualifying speed."

To some extent though, the track obviously did improve. By Saturday morning Senna found he could run quicker on race tyres than he had managed on qualifiers 24 hours earlier. And one man very much happier on the second day was the ever-present Prost, who put his McLaren on the front row, 0.4s slower than the poleman.

Friday, by Prost's standards, had been a dead loss. After a misfiring morning his engine died after a couple of slow laps in the timed session. Out he went in the spare McLaren, only fifth, and then came the rain. His second set of tyres went unused. Saturday was much better. In the morning, back in his own car once more, he found that the misfire had all but vanquished, and in the afternoon smoothly trimmed away two seconds and more.

"I feel happy about the race now," he smiled. "I was not running with a lot of boost – not much more than we use in the race, actually – so I was not too good in the straight. But now I have the handling exactly as I like it, and for sure we have a good race set-up." Through the trap Prost was eight miles per hour from Senna, around the lap only 0.4s away. Yes, Sunday did look promising.

Their team-mates, though both in with a strong shout, fared less well, the de Angelis Lotus qualifying fourth and Niki Lauda's McLaren seventh. The presence of Senna has done much to sharpen Elio's resolve, and he was delighted to pip him for best time on Friday morning. But their positions were reversed in the afternoon, when it mattered, and the Italian improved only slightly on Saturday – primarily because a turbo expired as he approached the line on his best lap. His first set of qualifiers, he said, had been wasted in traffic.

"Just watch Niki ease the car in," said Jackie Stewart, watching at the first corner. "You can compare him with anyone else, and he's much smoother. You notice that he turns in earlier, he doesn't throw it into the corner. If you're rough with a car, you're hurting the tyre temperatures. I don't care what anyone says."

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Lauda was indeed fluid into the turn in a manner only approached by Prost. But Saturday was not good to him. In the morning he stopped out on the circuit with Bosch Motronic problems, as in the race at Rio. And in the afternoon gearbox troubles put him into a spare with handling not up to snuff. In the horsepower race, he suggested, the TAG V6 was not keeping pace.

After the first day, with its dry-wet timed session, the name of Rosberg was at the foot of the list, for the Finn most untypically spun and tapped a guardrail while trying to get past Gerhard Berger's Arrows. His earlier run had been ruined by turbo failure and drizzle was coming down as he went out for his second. "It was my fault," Rosberg related. "I knew the conditions were going to get worse, so I went for the gap inside Berger, got off the line, and that was it."

The following day he vaulted from 26th to third, but at the same time volunteered a degree of mea culpa: "I didn't get the best out of my qualifiers – went for it before they were really up to temperature." For all that, there were no Honda engine failures during the qualifying days, and Rosberg said he had a good feeling about the race. He just wished he had made it to the front row.

His team-mate Nigel Mansell was ninth, 1.5s slower. "My first run was good," he reported on Saturday afternoon. But I only did one quick lap, and I should've done two, like Keke. For the second we lowered the ride height, figuring that should give us more grip. But it worked the other way - I was getting wheelspin in fourth!"

All in all though, Nigel was happy to get through the session with car and self unscathed, for on Friday, Williams-Honda number five had been savaged by the warring Alfa Romeos of Eddie Cheever and Riccardo Patrese. It was starting to rain and Mansell was quietly returning to the pits after a lurid slide. In his mirrors were the two green cars, and he wisely gave them room.

Not enough, apparently. Cheever and Patrese are not exactly crazy about each other, and haven't been since the first lap at Brands last year when Patrese's mistake caused the multiple shunt on the opening lap – which involved Cheever.

"I went to pass Nigel," Cheever fumed. "And Riccardo makes a mistake under braking, slams into me and the next thing is that I'm going over the Williams." How does your team-mate explain it? he was asked. "What team-mate are we talking about?" came the response.

Patrese claimed that Cheever closed the door on him. Mansell didn't really care too much how it started: "All I know is that suddenly I was in the air, then nosediving into the barrier." At first there were fears for the monocoque – no spare FW10 yet, remember – but all was well for Saturday morning. "We are getting a little short of spares for the front of the cars," Patrick Head admitted.

"I'm just glad that no-one can blame me for this," Mansell concluded. "Eddie came and apologised to Frank and to me. He said it wasn't his fault, and he knew it wasn't mine, I appreciated that."

Ferrari, as we have said, had their troubles. Amid the euphoria of Johansson's arrival, there was no getting away from the fact that the 156s were, to put it mildly, lively whenever the road turned. During Fiorano testing Alboreto had tried Lotus-style sidepod-mounted winglets, but they weren't seen at Estoril. "I couldn't feel any difference in the grip," Alboreto reported. "And we lost a bit of straightline speed." As it was, the Ferraris were very disappointing through the trap, beaten by TAG, Honda and Renault – and 11mph away from Piquet's BMW.

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Johansson was nonetheless highly impressed with the Italian V6. "There's a lot of power, believe me. The torque is amazing, and the response. And the whole thing's so smooth." Most of all, like all drivers new to Ferrari, Stefan raved about the gearbox: "It's faultless. I've never come across anything like it."

His two days of baptism were not easy. For most of the Friday morning he sat in the garage while the mechanics changed springs and bars. This was his first experience of a 156, and he began qualifying with little practice in it. To make matters worse, a rotor arm failure halted Johansson out on the circuit during his first flying lap. Back to the pits, out in the spare – which was set up for Alboreto, and which he hadn't sat in before.

The following morning he had a spin when the transmission broke, leaving him without drive in the middle of a corner. That meant the T-car again for the final session, and he did well to qualify 11th, 1s slower than his team mate. "At the moment it feels very nervous, but I'm sure we'll make progress in the Imola test next week," he said.

Warwick put the Renault RE60 into sixth place on the grid, a marked improvement on the car's form in Rio, but still he was less than thrilled. "It's getting a bit like 1982 all over again," he agreed when speaking about downforce. "Basically, it counts for much more than anything else – and that's what we're short of. The car just doesn't seem to have much grip. I'm quite surprised to be as high as sixth, because on my quickest lap I didn't feel as though I was driving very well – not making mistakes exactly, but not flowing. And the car is bloody nervous and twitchy, jumping all over the place."

It was Warwick's turn to run the older EF4 engine this weekend, Tambay having the questionable pleasure of the EF15. Both drivers reckon the new V6 in fundamentally better, but also currently less reliable. Patrick used the spare car for final qualifying, leaving the EF15 in his race chassis for Sunday. He qualified 12th.

Renault had revised suspension geometry for Estoril, rather curiously choosing to run the new front end on Tambay's car, the rear on Warwick's.

If you think back to the Lotus/Pirelli saga of 1983 you will recall that the 94Ts of the day invariably qualified superbly, then fell away in the race. After a long winter of testing with Brabham, Pirelli now seems to have a fine race tyre - but the qualifiers are hopeless.

Consider this: through the trap Piquet's BT54 was time at better than 194mph, Bellof's Goodyear-shod Tyrell-Cosworth at 155. Yet Nelson's best lap was less than 4s faster than Stefan's. The Brazilian was 2s away from his (Michelin) pole time of last October.

After his Rio shunt, a legacy of the diff locking solid, Nelson needed a new monocoque for Portugal, and he qualified 10th. Pirelli problems apart, he reckoned he should have been a little higher than that. "I did my first run right at the start of the session," he said on Saturday. "The track was clear, but we weren't on full boost. On my second set I did have full boost – and traffic." When he thought of the race though, Piquet perked up.

Francois Hesnault looks far less confident in a Brabham than he did in last year's Ligier. Like Piquet, he was hampered by a misfire in the first timed session, but on Saturday morning he missed his braking point at the first corner, locked up and slid off into the gravel. Damage was confined to a punctured tyre and wing side plate, but Hesnault never looked at ease in the car. There were other spins, too. He qualified only 19th, 2s from Piquet.

And the Alfas. We seem to have spoken already of them at some length in connection with the Mansell incident. In truth, it seems a curious way to go racing, for progress will surely be speedier if a team's two drivers are actually speaking to each other. Before Friday afternoon's little festival, Cheever was quite a happy man, saying: "We're in much better shape than in Rio."

"The car actually feels quite good here, but we've a problem with the new front suspension, which John Gentry did before he left. In fast corners the steering goes very stiff. On the plus side we have no temperature problems any more – but a new one has replaced it! The outlets for the radiators are now so high that the rear wing is in shadow. We're very low on downforce – we had much more when we tested here in January. And, of course, we're 40 kilos overweight."

Those trifles apart, Cheever thought things were looking up. After a final practice, though, he was despondent. The race car's engine had blown, and in the spare he was only fractionally quicker than before: "I know I would have been in the 22s."

Cheever had been 10th in the first session, but now fell to 14th, Patrese dropping from sixth to 13th. During Saturday morning the two Alfa men topped the lists for a while, but on qualifying boost were off the straightline pace. Both felt the set-up was good for the race, but Gianpaolo Pavanello must have shivered a little when he realised his cars were on the same row.

Manfred Winkelhock's RAM-Hart blew up early in the first timed session, but came back well in the second, qualifying 15th with his team-mate Philippe Alliot five places further back, electrical troubles keeping him from most of the last session. Some idea of Pirelli's Q-tyre confusion may be gained from the fact that RAM found the Italian race tyres quicker on Friday.

One man truly down after practice was Thierry Bousten, ninth on the first day, when the Arrows-BMW was actually fastest of all through the trap, at over 191mph. The A8s had new wider-track rear suspension for this race, and the Belgian enthused about it. On Saturday afternoon he was expecting to go really well with a fresh engine for the last session. Alas, it blew up before he could improve, and that dropped him to 16th just one place ahead of Berger's sister car.

Immediately behind Jack Oliver's sheaf was Jacques Laffite's Ligier-Renault, kept from a good time on Saturday by a broken clutch. The citizen of Stoke Poges had been only marginally slower than team mate Andrea de Cesaris in the first session, and was highly disappointed. De Cesaris, by contrast, progressed to eighth, fighting the JS25 all the way. His time, incidentally, made him Pirelli's fastest qualifier, 0.3s quicker than Piquet. Good also on straightline speed, the Ligiers – now sponsored by Candy – attracted favourable comments from drivers watching their behaviour out on the circuit. Is this car the sleeper of 1985?

The Tyrrell-Cosworths of Bellof and Martin Brundle duly qualified within 0.1s or so of each other, the latter reporting that his car felt nervous over the bumps but was otherwise fine. Behind him in 23rd was the new Zakspeed of Jonathan Palmer.

Since the car was last seen in testing, it has acquired the livery of West, an American cigarette company which will sponsor the team throughout 1985. And for Portugal the car's wheelbase had been lengthened by means of a spacer between engine and gearbox.

After a first morning spent attending to fundamentals like gear ratios and springs (much too stiff to begin with), Palmer was 19th in the opening session and sure there was a lot more to come. Unfortunately we were never to know, for the master switch short-circuited within a few seconds of the car leaving the pits for its opening run. Palmer could only park and curse. It must be said, however, that the team made a very favourable impression at this, it's first F1 race.

Mauro Baldi's venerable Spirit-Hart was next up, the Italian complaining of poor traction, and the back row comprised Pierluigi Martini's Cosworth-powered Minardi (which may have Carlo Chiti's new turbo V6 at Imola in two weeks), and Ghinzani's Osella-Alfa, which actually set 21st time on Saturday, but was disqualified from the session when its rear wing was found to be a few millimetres too high.

In the paddock was John Watson, and down the road somewhere was the Toleman transporter. Their sad absence from the track meant that, as in Rio, nobody missed the cut.

Race

April in Portugal. There was a tune of that name in my childhood 1950s, a light and airy melody, I seem to recall, suggestive of summer's approach. It would not have been appropriate for the Estoril paddock on Sunday morning.

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Through practice we had learned to live with murky skies and odd drops of rain, but soon after noon on race day grey was going black. The Red Arrows could only give us only their secondary programme, and everyone dug out wet weather gear, mildewing since Monaco - another temple of Mediterranean sunshine.

In the grandstand the spectator pondered. Had he spent his week's wages sensibly? And if so, why had nobody joined him?

In the paddock drivers and engineers glanced and grimaced repeatedly at the sky. Crazy when you thought about it, wasn't it? All this testing round the calendar – yet nobody ever tested in the wet. How would Goodyear and Pirelli compare? After two days of dry practice settings for the race would probably be guesswork.

The Renault mechanics had work of a more immediate kind on their hands. Following the warm-up they set upon the spare RE60, transplanting its rear end to Tambay's car (rear suspension failure) and its rear underbody to Warwick's, the Briton having spun into a high kerb.

The warm-up, run before the rain arrived, had – surprise – featured Prost's McLaren fastest followed by the Lotus of de Angelis. Third and fourth, though, were the Ferraris of Johansson and Alboreto. As both had said, the cars were indeed excellent on full tanks. Noteworthy, too, after the disappointment of Saturday, was the ninth position of Palmer's Zakspeed.

"Who's using what?" asked a Goodyear man in response to the question. "We don't know yet – there's a lot of psyching going on, as usual." But all that was swept away by the rain. It became a clear-cut matter of companies rather than compounds. Everyone was going to be on wets.

Would the start be delayed? No way. Time and TV slots wait for no man. But the drivers were given a few minutes for acclimatisation, during which there were sundry incidents. Mansell had an off, and arrived back at the start-finish area in need of a new nose, now too late to take his place on the grid. He like Martini, would start from the pitlane, as would Cheever, whose car was pushed off the grid, the American sprinting to the Alfa pit to board the 184 T-car.

The spectator looked down at the black Lotus before him. This was Senna's first pole position, and in these conditions a good start – and a clear road – was more than usually important. Only the leader would be seeing much in the early laps.

Ayrton did the job, smoothly away without too much wheelspin, but into the first corner there was black and gold rather than the expected red and white, in his mirrors. De Angelis had beaten Prost away, and that was going to be important.

On the grid Rosberg - third - had stalled, allowing de Angelis - fourth - some room with which to work. Although Alboreto, directly behind the stranded Williams, lost little time in going round it, de Angelis momentarily had a clear path down in the middle and made the most of it.

In the spray Palmer clipped the back of Rosberg's car, which punctured his right-front tyre. When he came in, the mechanics also discovered a damaged wishbone. Sadly, the Zakspeed's grand prix debut was short.

Mansell, Cheever and Martini duly departed from the pits to begin their race, and Mansell really got his head down. Beginning a splendid drive, which would see him eventually in the points. Keke, too, finally got on his way, only to spin on his first lap.

A disastrous start for Williams then, but a perfect one for Lotus. At the end of lap one Senna and de Angelis came through 1-2, followed by Prost, Alboreto Warwick, Lauda, de Cesaris, Tambay, Piquet and Johansson.

Senna was treading warily, at the same time doing it faster than everyone else. Making the most of his clear view, he was already lapping at a speed beyond his team-mate. After two laps there was a 3s gap between the Lotuses, and Prost's McLaren was a similar distance behind de Angelis.

If one Brazilian looked on course already for victory, the other faced the most dispiriting afternoon of his racing life. For the first three laps Piquet somehow resisted Johansson's Ferrari, but a queue was forming up behind the Brabham. De Cesaris's Ligier was also falling away. The Pirelli wets, it was clear, were embarrassingly bad. And as conditions worsened, so also did they.

"I would bet," mused one Brabham man afterwards, "that the telex between Chessington and Italy will be glowing red-hot on Monday morning."

Hesnault was at least spared the task of trying to keep his BT54 on the road for two hours, pulling off on lap three with a dead engine. Nelson, quickly passed now by Johansson, Patrese and Bousten, must have envied him.

Johansson's efforts had been wasted, however. On lap five Patrese took a late lunge at the Ferrari and hit the back of it. The move was never vaguely on, and both spun, Johansson rejoining in 17th place, his assailant retiring on the spot. A minute or so earlier Alliot's RAM had also spun off for good.

Further back in the field Bellof had predictably been making excellent progress, reviving memories of his brilliant display at Monaco last year. From a grid position of 21st, he had come past 14th at the end of the opening lap, and had Winkelhock's RAM against the ropes. Getting by though, was a different matter, for the German could always pull out several lengths down the pit straight. On lap five they touched and spun, both managing to continue, but Stefan's right front wing was gone. He opted to stay out with what he had, and proceeded to charge for the rest of the afternoon.

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Far and away the most imperturbable man on the circuit appeared to be the leader, who revived memories of Pedro Rodriguez as he made his smooth way round. Once or twice the Lotus jinked under braking for the first corner, but never once did it look like escaping Senna's control. Just occasionally comes a race when one driver makes the rest look ordinary, and this was one such.

After 10 laps Senna had nearly 12s over his team-mate, who was coming under repeated pressure from Prost, the McLaren in turn being caught by Alboreto's Ferrari. Without Senna, I thought, we'd have quite a race here.

Fifteen laps on the Pirellis were quite enough for Laffite, who brought in the Ligier, reporting that it was: a) dangerous, and b) pointless to continue. By now the rain was coming down very hard, and the speed differential between Goodyear and Pirelli runners was almost beyond belief. At what looked like walking pace de Cesaris was having to fight his JS25, and in the end Gerard Larrousse wisely called him in for the day. "We tried two other sets first," de Cesaris muttered. "But they didn't make any difference."

Piquet, for his part, never did retire. But the Brabham was frequently in the pits. "It was like a test session, really," said Gordon Murray later. "No point in getting upset – it was far too bad for that! He came in to chat and change his overalls, things like that." Eventually Piquet said he'd like them to know he was driving as hard as he could, but reckoned he was a serious danger to other drivers. At that they called it a day. His best lap in the race was 0.1s quicker than Ghinzani's Osella – and 7.5s from Senna's best.

In the confusion of spins and spray it was all too easy to overlook Mansell's progress. Remarkably – considering his delayed start – he had the Williams-Honda up in ninth place after 10 laps.

He had gained one place at the expense of Johansson, whose Ferrari debut was proving fraught. After being punted off by Patrese, the Swede came back superbly to 10th, at that point lapping as quickly as team mate Alboreto, but on lap 12 he was a victim once more.

"Winkelhock spun right in front of me, and I couldn't miss him," he said. "The nose was damaged, but I thought I'd stay out for a bit, Eventually I had to have it replaced, and then it was just a matter of keeping going till the end." He rejoined in 16th place.

Then Rosberg crashed. Coming through the long right-hander onto the main straight, the car snapped out of control, hit the guardrail and bounced back in the middle of the road, where it came to rest. With the rain really beating down now, there were some anxious moments as drivers swerved around the beached Williams. Rosberg was quickly out and away, but had bashed his hand on something in the cockpit, the wound requiring several stitches.

"He said the engine was all or nothing," reported one of the mechanics afterwards. "The road was really waterlogged at that point, and the power chimed in at the wrong moment."

Warwick too, hit a barrier. On lap 13 he had lost sixth places to his team-mate Tambay, but both the Renaults were closing on Lauda, who was smooth as ever but clearly not enjoying himself. Lauda let them through without much of a fight, but two laps later, Warwick was into the pits.

"I really hit the guardrail hard," he related. "My helmet hit the roll-over bar, and gave me a headache. When I came in, they changed the tyres, and I was really hoping they'd check the car over! But I went back out, and absolutely nothing was damaged. I still can't believe that."

At the front there was no change. As the 30-lap mark approached Senna led by more than 30s and Prost continued to crowd de Angelis for second place, with Alboreto's beautifully- driven Ferrari ever present in their mirrors. "For sure," Prost ruefully said after the race, "I make a big mistake at the start letting Elio beat me away."

As the two of them pounded down the pit straight to begin lap 31, the McLaren suddenly began to weave, veering first left, then right, then breaking into a spin. Prost could do nothing to keep it from hitting the wall. Out he stepped, race run.

"It was raining very 'ard just then, with deep puddles, and in the spray it's impossible to see where they are. Once you start aquaplaning at that speed, you are finished." With Lauda apparently out of contention, McLaren were going to lose a race for the first time since Dallas last July.

Conditions had now gone from bad to appalling – worse by far, according to Senna, than those at Monaco. At this point he was waving vigorously as he passed the pits, indicating that the race should be stopped. All around the circuit were abandoned cars. Martini's Minardi, after countless spins, was finally out, as was Berger's Arrows. The young Austrian had driven a fine and forceful race, getting ahead of his team-mate Boutsen for a while. Baldi's Spirit gave the guardrail a very sizeable thump, and Brundle's Tyrrell, running 10th despite gearbox problems, also spun into retirement.

There were, however, no mistakes from the leader, despite the fact that he was lapping faster than anyone else. An hour into the race he was 40s clear, and interest centred on the battle for second, for Alboreto very definitely had his sights set on de Angelis. On lap 43 the Ferrari had emerged from the spray and flicked inside the Lotus as they approached the first turn.

De Angelis made no real attempt to close the door, and it looked as if he had been caught unawares. Immediately he made a rather futile attempt to get back at Michele, but only two corners later left his breaking too late and slid wide. On the gravel and slippery grass he did a fine job in keeping control of the Lotus, but while off-course punctured a front tyre, which deflated slowly thereafter but did not keep him from reaching the finish.

One of the best drives of the race came from Cheever, always excellent in the wet. From his pitlane start he had taken the old Alfa 184 up to eighth in the course of only nine laps. A plug changed after half an hour had dropped him down the field, but he then clawed himself back to eighth and looked set to improve further on that. Alas, the car eventually stopped with a dead engine. Electrics somewhere, they said.

Lauda's disappointing race also ended in the late stages. The world champion had been passed successively by Tambay, Mansell and Bellof, and on lap 49 crept into the pits with piston failure. Conditions, he said, were ludicrously dangerous, and he felt the race should have been stopped much earlier. No points for McLaren.

Lap 59 featured a new third place man, Tambay, who had driven an excellent race. De Angelis, struggling with his soft front tyre, could offer no resistance – indeed he was lapped by team mate Senna before the end.

"Come in, number 12, your two hours are up." After 67 laps of the originally scheduled 69, the chequered flag went out to Senna – and his moment of triumph could easily have been soured by tragedy. In the manner pioneered by Colin Chapman, some of the Lotus mechanics jumped over the barrier and onto the track to greet their man. Seeing them, Senna slowed and moved to the right immediately after crossing the line. Thundering up beside him was Mansell's Williams, suddenly with nowhere left to go, Nigel lifted off and swerved left, behind the Lotus, then surviving a wild moment on the grass. It was good that Prost's abandoned McLaren was further on down the road.

Before reaching the first turn Ayrton had flung off his belts, and was waving both arms wildly, The Latin at last. This was his 17th grand prix, only his second for Lotus, and he had won it. More than that, he had been in a different class right from the green light. Fastest in both sessions, fastest lap of the race, leader all the way. Full House. Victories like that deserve more than nine points.

"The big danger," he said later, outward exuberance now gone, "was that conditions changed all the time. Sometimes the rain was very heavy, sometimes not. I couldn't see anything at all behind me. It was difficult even to keep the car in a straight line sometimes, and for sure the race should have been stopped. It was much worse than Monaco last year. Once I nearly spun in front of the pits, like Prost, and I was lucky to stay on the road."

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And the car? "Fantastic. I had an engine and gearbox change after the warm-up, and there were no problems at all."

Others were happy, too. Alboreto's superb drive to second gives him the lead of the World Championship, and Tambay was amazed by third – "I had no spins or anything, but I don't know how. I think I saw the Devil about a million times today. I could have been third or 13th.

De Angelis could have hoped for better than fourth, but also drove a fine race. Had not Senna been in the other Lotus, indeed, he might have thought it a very fine race. It will be interesting to see how he responds at Imola and beyond.

A finish in the points will have done wonders for Mansell's morale. After his gaff immediately before the start, he drove an excellent and gutsy race to finish fifth, ahead of the irrepressible Bellof, who scored what must be the last World Championship point for a Cosworth-powered car! Surely.

The spectator looked on and considered his afternoon. Had it been worth all the money? On balance, yes, he decided. He was soaked and chilled through, but a Portuguese-speaking driver had won. And one day he would be able to say that he had been there, that day when Ayrton Senna won his first grand prix.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ouais_supère le 07 Juin 2011, 19:20

Ron Dennis on Ayrton Senna

In 2004, ten years after Ayrton Senna's death, his former team boss Ron Dennis spoke to the press about the Brazilian and his life with McLaren. Now Edd Straw re-visits that interviews and gathers the thoughts of other personalities who knew him well

By Edd Straw
AUTOSPORT F1 editor

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Ayrton Senna drove for four teams during his Formula 1 career. But picture the Brazilian in your mind's eye and most will visualise a yellow-and-green helmet inside Marlboro-liveried McLarens from 1988-1993.

Senna started 96 races for McLaren and won three world championships before making his ill-fated switch to Williams in search for more competitive machinery in 1994. During those six years, Ron Dennis, then McLaren team principal and now chairman of the group, was his boss and uniquely placed to see the real Senna.

At a screening of the recent Senna, Dennis was reported to be deeply moved, a sign of how deep the bond that existed between the two.

At the Bahrain Grand Prix in 2004, a month short of 10 years after Senna's death in the San Marino Grand Prix, Dennis spoke at length about his relationship with the legendary Brazilian; a relationship that stretched back to long before he was signed to drive for McLaren in 1988.

"The first time I met him, he was in Formula Ford going into F3," said Dennis. "I offered to pay for his F3 championship in return for an option on his services.

"I cannot remember the words, but he was very clear in telling me that he would pay for his own F3 season. He did not want anything but a guarantee of a drive instead of an option. And this was a young guy who had not really proven himself but had the self-belief that he was going to be a tremendous F1 driver.

"That was the first encounter and when we parted I thought ‘arrogant young Brazilian'."

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That arrogant young Brazilian went on to dominate the British F3 championship in 1983 for West Surrey Racing, winning 12 out of 20 races in a Toyota-engined Ralt.

The following season, he started to prove himself in F1 with Toleman, taking three podiums for a team that had never before achieved such lofty results. Dennis kept a watching brief, but after that debut year it would be three more years, during which Senna won six grands prix and 16 pole positions for Lotus, before he at last signed him following some unusual contract negotiations.

"He was a fine negotiator and he would spend, as with his driving, a lot of time thinking about it," said Dennis.

"How we structured the contract regarding the non-fiscal matters was quickly established. It was the fiscal issue that was difficult; it's well known that we came to a rock and a hard place over half-a-million dollars. It was a point of principle about who was going to win the vast part of the negotiations!

"His English was not perfect at this stage, so I suggested that we should break the deadlock by tossing a coin. It took a while to explain it and then, of course, it became quite serious. We had to be very clear about the rules so I had to draw a picture of a head and a tail, select a coin, say this is you, this is me and that it cannot land on its side, it has to be flat. We went over the rules several times to make sure that there was no misunderstanding.

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"We had a couple of practice runs then threw the coin. It rolled under the curtain and as we were jumping up I said ‘just remember if it's on its side, it doesn't count'. He lifted the corner and it was flat, it had rolled off the side of the curtain onto the floor."

So Senna had his extra half-a-million for each of the three years of that deal, but Dennis got his money's worth. The Brazilian took pole position for his first six races, racking up victories in San Marino, Canada and Detroit. In doing so, he laid the foundations for his first world championship – and turned in one of his most amazing performances with a qualifying lap at Monaco an incredible 1.427s faster than team-mate Alain Prost.

Come the race, Senna made one of his most infamous mistakes, clattering into the barrier at the chicane while leading by well over 50 seconds with 12 laps to go. He slinked away to his apartment, unable to come to terms with his mistake.

"His post-accident emotion was pure anger with himself," said Dennis in 2004. "I have never seen him or heard him more frustrated and angry. He knew that he had effectively lost concentration and made a very fundamental error when he came down onto the seafront and hit the barrier and he could not cope with it at all.

"He walked back to his apartment and it was two or three hours before he surfaced but when he surfaced he had gained composure. He very negative about his performance and very apologetic to the team."

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But Senna had little else to apologise about in 1988. He claimed 13 pole positions and eight wins as McLaren's sleek Honda-engined MP4/4 utterly dominated. From the moment it hit the track at the eleventh hour of pre-season testing at Imola, it was the class of the field. So much so that only a clash with lapped Williams driver Jean-Louis Schlesser, making his sole grand prix appearance, late in the race prevented a McLaren clean sweep.

"I was surprised that he tried to pass me where he did [coming into the right-hand part of the Rettifilio chicane]," said Schlesser of the incident. "I was braking, braking, braking and thinking 'why has he not passed me yet? So I had to turn when I did and 'ping!' He hit me.

It wasn't hard, there was no damage to the car and I could finish 11th without a problem. It made no real difference to me, but I guess it has made me a lot more famous than if he had passed me.

"Ayrton was quite nice with me about it after the race though. We talked. He said ‘it's okay, don't worry. It's a racing incident.'"

At the next race, one of the first major flashpoints between Senna and Prost occurred. The Frenchman was incensed by Senna pushing him towards the pit-wall as they disputed the lead. But it would not be until the following season that the tension between the two boiled over.

The moment of truth came at Imola – arguably the most critical incident in the Senna/Prost relationship that the creators of the movie opted to omit. The McLaren drivers had an agreement that they would not pass each other after the first corner.

Prost took the lead and Senna overtook him further around the lap – the point at which the tension between the two became an ice cold war that would define their relationship. Prost felt that Senna had violated the agreement, while the Brazilian attempted to justify what he had done by claiming that it did not apply because this was a restarted race after a lengthy red flag for Gerhard Berger's huge shunt at Tamburello.

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The story of 1989 is very well documented, culminating in the Prost/Senna collision at Suzuka and all of the drama that followed us.

In a way, it was inevitable that a pairing of two of the greatest drivers in motor-racing history would clash. Perhaps Dennis, whose man-management is sometimes criticised, played a role in keeping things cordial for as long as they were. With Senna, in particular, he struck up a very close relationship.

"Ayrton and Alain were the first two drivers where I had an age gap so I could gain the upper hand," said Dennis." Previously I was too close to the drivers' age and wasn't particularly polished at it myself, but he [Senna] was one where there was an age gap. It wasn't father-son but most definitely I could step in and be firm and get the necessary response.

"I look back at that period and I think I guided him through some very difficult parts of his life."

Following the departure of Prost, things at McLaren settled down. With Gerhard Berger cast as the support act (despite outqualifying Senna on his first appearance at Phoenix). In 1990 and 1991, there were two more world championships, including that second day of controversy at Suzuka, where Senna paid Prost back for what had happened the year before by bulldozing him off the track at Turn 1.

But in 1991, it was clear that McLaren's superiority was slipping. The Honda engine was becoming second-best to the Renaults that powered Williams and Senna's third and final title came in a car that did not have the peaks of performance of its main rival. The following year, Williams was utterly dominant and Senna won only three races. Berger recalls that Senna's determination during this period never faltered.

"When we raced together in 1992 for McLaren it became obvious that the team would not have a works engine deal for 1993 after Honda announced its retirement," says Berger. "It was clear that McLaren would have to use Cosworth customer engines.

"I decided to accept the offer to go back to Ferrari, whereas Senna did not seem to me being bothered at all. He was just untouched by future expectations and could fully stay focused on the ongoing job because he was so strong mentally."

But Senna was concerned. Frustrated in his attempts to join Williams for 1993 and having even considered a switch to struggling Ferrari, he drove one last season for Dennis in 1993.

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In some ways, that year was his most remarkable. He won five times, with each victory memorable for its own reasons. At Interlagos, he won in wet race, a feat he repeated two weeks later with his dominant drive at Donington Park. Both of these wins came with a Ford engine that was one-step behind the factory powerplants in the back of the Benettons.

There was also a sixth win at Monaco and, another improbable victory at Suzuka. Then, in his last race for McLaren and with a move to Williams already agreed, Senna took his 41st win on the streets of Adelaide ahead of Alain Prost. It was to be the final time that either of them stood on a grand prix podium, Prost's through choice and Senna's through fate.

But according to Dennis, Senna was having second thoughts about his move to Williams long after signing on the dotted line.

"The night before and the night after that race, we talked about whether we should try and extract him from his contractual obligations to stay at McLaren," said Dennis. "The car was particularly good and he had regained confidence in McLaren's ability to provide him with a winning car.

"But by the time that post-race evening had finished, I think neither of us was particularly lucid! It had lapsed into emotion. He was an honourable guy and he had made a commitment to Williams. While he definitely reviewed it, I don't think there was any set of circumstances that would lead him to renege on his word.

"The fact that he had done such an exceptional job in the closing stages of the season it was very difficult to get upset."

There is a particularly poignant moment in the Senna movie capturing a conversation between Dennis and Senna in the closing stages of the Brazilian's time at McLaren. It's a fascinating insight into their relationship and proof that there was no animosity despite the way the partnership ended.

A reminder that the Dennis/Senna team boss/driver relationship is every bit as enduring and important as any that came before or after in the sport.

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Special thanks to Mark Hughes for some of the material provided in this feature.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ouais_supère le 07 Juin 2011, 19:29

Why the Senna legend still stands strong

More than 17 years after his death, the legend of Ayrton Senna is still so strong that a movie has been made about him. But what is it about the three-time world champion that still moves not only F1 fans, but the general public so much? Simon Strang investigates

By Simon Strang
AUTOSPORT.com editor

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Could you imagine yourself going to the cinema to see a film about any of Formula 1's current drivers? Okay maybe some of you would, but how about a movie entitled 'Prost' or 'Lauda'? What about 'Fangio'? Or, dare I say it, 'Schumacher'?

There's a good chance given that you subscribe to AUTOSPORT that the answer is probably yes to at least some of the above. Now think of a person close to you who has little or no interest in Formula 1. Would they go to a movie about any of those characters? Would they have even heard of them?

I bet they have heard of Ayrton Senna.

It can't have escaped your notice by now that the Senna movie has its UK release this week. Today, in fact. Hence AUTOSPORT is running several features on the great man on the website and in the magazine (next week) for you to celebrate the fact.

It's a film that is essential viewing for F1 fans, though it may be wise to treat it as a celebration of Senna's life rather than a sharply accurate and documented history of the Brazilian's career. It's more of a narrative that weaves its way through aspects of the psyche of perhaps the sport's most complex champion. The film has won awards at the Sundance Festival and has received almost universally strong reviews.

But the fact that the documentary-style motion picture (think When We Were Kings – the wonderful documentary about Muhammad Ali and George Foreman) has made it to a very public release at all says a huge amount about the enduring legacy the Brazilian left behind. And not only in the minds of motor racing fans young and old, but also those who remember his passing merely as a global news event in the 1990s.

If you listen to young drivers now, they often cite Ayrton Senna as an influence, Lewis Hamilton chief among them. Yet the 2008 F1 world champion was only nine years old when the Brazilian was killed. He hadn't even started school when Senna took his first world title for McLaren at Suzuka in 1988. It would be hard to imagine Lewis in a position to make critical judgement on Senna's talent at that age. You could argue though that this period of Hamilton's, or anybody's, life is when heroes are born. But for those icons to endure takes something else altogether.

So what is it about the mystical draw of Senna? We all know about the awesome speed and the resounding track presence, but he's not the only man ever to have possessed those qualities. And in real terms his statistics on their own no longer bear out as a peerless barometer against which to be measured – Michael Schumacher has long since eclipsed the important records.

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Still people who should know, people who care very deeply about these things, peers not only of Senna's time but of all time count him as the best there ever was.

How is it that Senna's standing remains impenetrable and unquestioned in the minds of so many people far beyond the sphere of motor racing?

"It's because he transcended the sport and his job, even before his death," says Senna's old rival from F3 and F1, Martin Brundle. "I think because he became a global icon as well as a racing driver – and I don't think he put any effort into [becoming] that by the way, that's just the way he was because he wore his heart on his sleeve – and because he was clearly so successful, people could associate with him.

"I think also he was pretty controversial and that kind of news always travels too.

"So because he drove with such commitment and such emotion, and not a little controversy, he was well known and ended up transcending the sport," he adds. "I was thinking about it as I was watching the Senna movie the other night. 'How did the bloke I'd be idly chit-chatting to at places like the Cadwell Park paddock end up being this international icon?'"

The reality is of course that Senna's fatal accident took place during a live global broadcast. It would be no exaggeration to suggest that hundreds of millions have now seen the moment his Williams-Renault FW16 careered into the Tamburello wall, at Imola, on the fifth lap of the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix.

It's also worth putting the circumstances into perspective. At the time, Senna was the world's most successful active F1 driver. He was seeking to recover his position as number one, having lost out to what he considered to be more competitive machinery, rather than superior driving, during the previous two seasons. He was, by then, the sport's biggest individual ambassador, a brand name like Lance Armstrong is to cycling, Roger Federer to tennis or Pele to soccer. And, at 34, he was fighting to hold back time with his great rivals Alain Prost and Nigel Mansell already gone from F1 and a host of young pretenders, led by Michael Schumacher, forging their way through. It was developing fascinatingly into the latest chapter in a wonderful human drama. And then he died. Just like that. No retirement, no announcement. No opportunity to say goodbye.

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"How did he get on the radar of non-F1 people? I think we all accept that F1's footprint expanded hugely on his death because it was an international icon that had been killed in action," says Brundle. "For me, I always thought it was sort of up there with. . . I don't know, was it as powerful as when Princess Diana was killed?"

Inevitably the death of the famous enhances the legend, there's no avoiding it. But the way this happened, while Senna was at the very edge of his fame, was exactly as you would plan it if you were writing the story as a tragedy. But this was in real time.

Brundle: "It's a bit like when Elvis Presley died or that question, 'Where were you the day that JFK got shot?' It had that kind of impact. And it wasn't just petrolheads, he was known by people who wouldn't necessarily have watched a grand prix.

"I mean he was a very controversial character there's no doubt about it. Some of his actions we'd be appalled at today, the way penalties get handed out and all; they're all pretty trivial compared to one or two strokes that Ayrton pulled in F3 and F1 frankly. But Senna represented the sport, and he connected absolutely, whether it was his spiritual approach or just his God-given gift behind the wheel. Then of course he was very emotional and religious out of the car and he connected with a lot of people.

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"Roland Ratzenberger died the day before Senna, and he was very popular inside motorsport. That created a lot of sadness within the sport but he was unrecognised basically from the outside, whereas obviously 24 hours later the whole world knew about Senna's death."

Williams co-founder Patrick Head, who worked with Senna in 1994, agrees that the Brazilian's death contributed to the legend, but argues that isn't necessarily what sets him apart from other greats or what inspired people to make a movie about him in particular.

"I don't really agree that it would be impossible to make a movie about a modern driver like Fernando Alonso, but Ayrton was a very intense, and certainly quite a cerebral character at the racetrack – I didn't really know him outside of the racetrack," he says. "And obviously he was very impressive to people not only in his race wins but in his qualifying and the way he went about it. Meanwhile, very sadly obviously, but to some extent it may be the fact that he died dramatically may be another factor. It would be a pity that people have to die to make a movie [viable]."

And that's the point isn't it? Senna's death, while dramatic and public, wasn't the whole story. And though it may be the shell that contains the mystique that intensifies his legend, it has nothing to do with the yoke that feeds it.

If it did, surely then Gilles Villeneuve, Jim Clark or perhaps even Mike Hawthorn would command a similar position in the minds of so many beyond the realms of motorsport. They don't of course, because Senna was so much more than a driver to the general public. He was an icon. Between his religious beliefs, his intensity when being interviewed (which he appeared to take so much more seriously than frequently occurs today) and his philanthropic approach to problems of his native Brazil, by the time Senna died, he was a truly global celebrity. One who happened to race cars very, very well.

Sir Jackie Stewart, who features prominently in the film, has a unique take on how Senna transcended his F1 fame in the hearts of many. He believes firmly that much of it was down to laying foundations for a life beyond F1, and it's something he says Senna's generation of drivers was doing much more than the stars of today.

"I was with Ford for 30 years, with Goodyear for 17 years, with Elf for 17 years, with Rolex for 40 years; so there were activities going on that kept me present if you like [after racing]," says Stewart, who also became a television presenter with ABC after retiring from racing in 1973. "The modern driver doesn't do much outside the real sport.

"Look at how David Beckham has done well [beyond his football teams]. Beckham recognised the commercial logic of being dressed well, presented well. You put it all together and he looked respectable when he represented England for the World Cup bid, he was a big feature because there was no other footballer there.

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"So why wouldn't today's drivers want to present themselves differently, be commercially more valuable? Because they make a lot of money out of driving cars and they don't have to do the appearances and the associations.

"I think that that's not good for them long term. Look at me. If you came with me when leaving the track now, you would be amazed at the number of people that have got photographs, and not from today. But the fact that they brought them along... where the hell did they get them? And why was it interesting? I don't understand it, I'm amazed. When I go places the recognition factor is huge, and that's because of all the relationships I've had and the identity I have.

"I'm making more money than most drivers on the grid and continue to, because there is no free lunch! But I think Senna would have done that too.

"Senna was ready to stop, and I know that because he was calling me. We were speaking sometimes two or three times a week. From the 1993 Australian Grand Prix in Adelaide [in November], up to when he died, we were talking at least two or three times on the phone, minimum. Because of safety, he wanted to do something... and this after he'd declared that he would never speak to me again after the interview."

The interview Stewart refers to appears in the film, and while it's better left for you to watch the movie than detail it here, it's worth making a mental note that Sir Jackie insists to this day the questions he asked that enraged Senna so much were well researched and factually correct.

Brundle agrees with Stewart on the point about identity, but he adds that the process of media and fame management is more automated now than it was in the 1980s and early '90s, during the period of Senna's F1 career.

And while drivers in those days were more approachable and paddocks more accessible for fans through open tyre tests and lax gate controls, it's true to say that their personal public identities were not only ones they had themselves sculpted, but they also weren't subject to constant multimedia scrutiny. There was no internet.

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And thus drivers like Senna, Prost, Nigel Mansell and Nelson Piquet maintained an element of mystery about them. They were perceived as men fighting mighty machines, roaring across the globe, unconcerned by the banalities of fashion and modern culture. They were their own men – and none was perhaps more forceful in his approach to this aspect than Senna himself.

"I think that's right, I think you could write a couple of chapters on that but I think it's for a number of reasons," says Brundle. "First of all now you've got multimedia and the internet and hours of TV coverage globally and you know the drivers [as individuals] far better. I mean we'll interview Lewis [Hamilton] more times in a grand prix than the BBC interviewed me in my 10-season career because there wasn't any airtime.

"There's a lot more media around F1 so I think you do know these people much better and you can click on your laptop or your phone and see pictures on Twitter and so on. Of course you've also got the viral stuff going on now from the sponsors. But there isn't quite the mystique about the drivers now that you've got on-board cameras, pit-to-car radio and while they're buried inside the cockpit you do get a lot more access to them.

"Also back then the cars were flame-throwing, angry, scary things that could kill you or smash your leg to bits. I think there was something a bit more gladiatorial about those days than there is today."

Head says something similar, and while like Brundle he is cautious to suggest that it was better back in the '80s, he does point out things were very different.

"They were," he says. "The safety aspects that the cars provided were nowhere near as high and the simulation tools and the general knowledge of the cars was very much less and also particularly with the turbo cars, they were pretty difficult. You had this extraordinary situation of suddenly an extra 30-40% power in qualifying than they would have for the rest of the weekend. That was quite challenging for the drivers."

Senna was a master of qualifying. Twenty-nine of his 65 pole positions were achieved in the turbo era, and until the end of 1988 when the technology was banned, that represented more than a third of his total qualifying participations. His tally is still the second highest, 17 years on from his death.

Head makes the further point: "I think GP drivers in those days, certainly the successful ones, were mostly in their high 20s, or maybe their early-to-mid 30s. They were probably a bit more mature, in years at least, than they are now."

Perhaps this is the reason that while the makers of this film, director Asif Kapadia and screenwriter Manish Pandey, gathered more than 15,000 hours of footage from official FOM sources to handycam moments recorded behind the scenes, you don't feel overexposed to Senna having watched the movie. Rather you leave it feeling like you want to learn more.

In the end, though, while all these factors played their part in enhancing Senna's memory, there is no getting away from the fact that he was an incredible racing driver in a period when the sport was perhaps more popular globally than at any other time in its history. And at a time when he faced ferocious competition not just from Prost – whose own approach to racing was so different and less outwardly emotional that it has fuelled debate for 20 years about their three-year duel – but from giant characters like Mansell, Nelson Piquet and Keke Rosberg. All of them great world champions in their own right.

Image

And yet if you consider Senna's reign at the top to begin from his first title-winning campaign in 1988 through to 1993, it's not hard to build an argument that he was the best of them all. Both statistically and in his unrelenting approach to all aspects of his craft, good and bad.

"He'd be the first man to run you off the road and then the first man to run back and see if you were okay," recalls Brundle. "You see that all the way through the movie. But that's the way he was, he raced with his heart and his head followed.

"That's what made Senna the man he was and why he was so special. He was driven beyond belief."

So does the movie capture these aspects of Senna?

"There was the story and how it ended, but he was also a very enigmatic and reflective individual who had tremendous charisma," says McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh, who worked with Senna closely. "It's a very powerful movie for those that know him - I don't know how powerful it is for those that didn't, although I hope and think that it would have been. But it's very poignant for those that knew him. And there was this great feud with Alain [Prost].

"I'm not sure that the movie is quite as kind to Alain as it might have been, but that feud adds to the story of this very enigmatic, Latin guy who all the girls thought was very good looking!

"I don't know anyone who knew Ayrton. Ayrton, I believe, was an absolute competitor and he was absolutely private. I hear people say that they were his good friends, but I don't remember so many people being around him.

"He was very private and I don't know that many people knew the real Ayrton Senna. I wouldn't claim to be one of those people even though I worked with him for four years. A lot of people believe that they did, or say that they did, but I wouldn't."

No wonder then that there will probably always be a desire to know more about the man. The movie is a good place to start.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ouais_supère le 07 Juin 2011, 19:35

The making of the Senna movie

Writer and executive producer of the new Senna film, Manish Pandey, had a vision to tell the true story behind the great Brazilian. Here, he explains the story behind the film and how he believes its success is good news for grand prix racing's popularity

By Manish Pandey
Executive producer, Senna


Formula 1 is a wonderful sport. It's life, it's death, it's politics, it's romance, it's bullshit, it's truth. It's just every big thing played out. But the worst thing you can do is to view F1 as just a bunch of coloured helmets and cars going round and round a track - because that's really not what it is. It's got so much depth; it's got so much life. But unfortunately death is also a part of Formula 1.

It's been 17 years now since the death of Ayrton Senna, but the film has put his life and career back in front of our eyes. It's been an incredible journey putting it together and seeing its success – having lived with it since its conception. But I must admit I can't take full credit for it.

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Birth of an idea

The story of the film goes back to 2002 when, as a long-time F1 and Senna fan, I had been contacted about doing a Senna documentary, but that didn't work out. Then, in 2004, The Times ran a series of articles on the death of Ayrton Senna – the 10th anniversary. I read those and they were incredibly moving. The one that I remember the most was a Simon Barnes piece, because he called Senna 'the car whisperer'. He said he'd met him just once in Canada and that he had been left with no doubt that Senna had been someone otherworldly. This was just not any racing driver.

At the time James Gay-Rees, who eventually became the producer of the film, had a three-picture deal with Working Title Films. James's father was the account manager for John Player Special, so he had been to Lotus a lot in the mid 1980s and he recalled from then his father telling him, 'there's a guy there and he is just otherworldly.' So 10 years after Senna was killed, these words hit James again.

James went to see motorsport nut Eric Fellner of Working Title Films, and told him that he wanted to do a feature documentary on the death of Ayrton Senna – based on three days at Imola. He told him it was going to be incredibly powerful movie about the death of a sporting icon, and how the sport almost came to an end. Eric said: 'Great, lets do it.'

My wife was head of development for Working Title Films and, having done a film with James a few years before, said to him that if was going to try and do something on the Senna movie she ought to get in touch with me.

Image
Pandey, Kapadia and Gay-Rees at the film's premiere

James gave me a call back in October 2004 and we met in his offices. He pitched me his idea and I said, 'it's all brilliant, but I don't think we should do it.' I told him that although Senna's death is powerful and iconic, it really misses the point of the man. You will understand the death if you experience his life, and I said I didn't think you could do that from flashbacks from races and Imola. I didn't think you could start from Thursday and talk about Senna's early career and go on. It's all very gloomy and, believe me, people are going to feel that from the moment you fade in.

The real meat of this film is the journey that this man takes in F1. James got it straight away and just said: 'Great, let's do it: the life and death of Ayrton Senna.'

The next step was to get hold of the Senna family. James managed to hook up with their business affairs manager and it turned out that the Sennas had a very straightforward way of dealing with people. You press an idea, they say, 'come and talk to us about it', they send you the business affairs person, he normally sits and listens very politely and then that's the end of it.

We had lunch with him and I remember him starting off a little bit cynical, but he saw that I could talk to him about the races - and not just the famous races, but the more below the radar races - this guy really knew that, unless we were an amazing pair of con artists, we were going to do this properly.

It took us until March 2006 for him to arrange a meeting with Viviane Senna, Ayrton's sister. He worked very hard for us and asked us to put something together. We made a 40-minute audiovisual presentation using static photos of Senna, set to music. It was quite powerful actually, and when we brought it along I think what really struck her was the authenticity of our approach.

She was crying so hard at the end and I noticed everyone in the room was too. I was oddly unemotional – they were all crying and Viviane got up and said: 'You really knew my brother.'

I'd never met the man but had followed him and had this sense. She told us the story that's at the end of the film where Senna pulls up onto the grid, having that morning opened the bible and read the text. He read that today he would get the greatest gift, which was God himself.

The business affairs person came up to me at the end of that meeting and said that he had heard that bible story, but only because Leonardo Senna [Senna's brother] had told him. No one else in the family knew the story, so he said we were making this film. I gave Viviane a promise at that point. I said: 'listen, I promise you we'll do this 100 per cent.'

Creating the film

I went to the Caribbean for what was supposed to be four weeks with my family, with the idea being to do a bit of writing and a bit of thinking. But I got a call 10 days in saying Bernie Ecclestone would like to meet me, so I had to find a flight back. We came back, went into the meeting and I met Ian Holmes, the head of media rights at FOM.

I remember Bernie coming in, and he didn't even sit down during our 17-minute meeting. I think he basically wanted to look us in the eye and see if we were for real and I think getting Viviane's endorsement was good.

The FOM contract came into place very quickly after we got agreement from the Senna family, but obviously Bernie was not going to give up footage until we were totally square with Viviane and the foundation.

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Making the film was a labour of love for Pandey

Bernie was clearly looking for the right people to tell the story, and I think we just happened to walk in at the right time. The bottom line is there were tectonic plates moving under our feet, and we were on those plates in the right places. He shook our hands, which was very important, and he said, 'give us everything you've got and we'll see what we can do.' It was fantastic.

After that, it was a hunt to find the director. We interviewed dozens of people, but it never quite felt that we were with the right person. Then Asif Kapadia walked in and something just clicked. He's tough, he's not the easiest guy to work with but I think that was a really good thing.

Asif's great at turning around to things you put to him and saying, 'Why? Why is that cinematic? Why is that emotional?' He pushed hard for what he believed, but he really had a feel for Senna's journey.

Asif and I made a 10-minute version of the film, using my F1 tapes that I had downloaded to my computer. We gleaned a few things off YouTube, we put some music on and we made this three-act film. That really was the film structurally and Asif then turned around and said, 'Manish, I think we can do this without any talking heads.' Suddenly, I knew he was absolutely right; the point is that the pieces of footage from the time define and illustrate the journey.

If we were going to go down that route, though, then we needed to change our deal with Bernie. Our original contract was for 40 minutes of footage, but of course with no talking heads that meant we would need 80 minutes. So we went to see Ian and he said he would speak to Bernie. He came back to us with a deal proposal, and basically Bernie said yes.

We also had to change the way that we got the footage for the film. In the original contract it said we'd give them a list of stuff and they'd get back to us, but feature films just don't work like that. They need to be dynamic. We couldn't give them a list of what we wanted, because we didn't know what they had.

So we arranged to go to Biggin Hill, where FOM's footage is stored, for four weeks. We watched tapes for eight hours a day, but by then we knew the key races. We knew Monaco '84 was very important, we knew Suzuka '88 would be important and obviously Monaco '88 would be important.

We targeted races and at the beginning there were maybe 10 or 11 tapes per race. Then by the time you get to Imola, you're talking about 40 to 45 cameras, and they're there on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. So there are four days of footage and tons of coverage. There was so much to go through.

Take Brazil 1991 for example. Asif reckoned there were six cameras on Senna on the podium when he won - four facing forwards and two facing backwards. That gives you an amazing series of cutting opportunities.

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A small crew worked on the film

After our work there, I think we took away about 20 or 30 hours of footage. Bear in mind some scenes are only three seconds long, but they would give you an idea of what it was.

We would create sequences like Suzuka '89. We'd start with that amazing shot in the garage with Ron [Dennis] standing by one car and then the other, and [commentator] John Bisignano telling you what's at stake.

Moments like that were great, but I also remember when I saw the Imola footage for the first time I was very upset. Seeing him so unhappy, so close up, was very hard to watch. I remember being told that I was going to have to admit to myself at some point that the story behind this film was a tragedy.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that: I think it'd be a complete tragedy if all of those events had happened and we'd forgotten, but I don't think we have forgotten. I think his memory is so powerful, and that's what takes the edge off the tragedy.

In the cinema

When we first watched the final cut of the film in Cannes, I had Viviane on my right and Bianca [Senna] to my left. It was amazing how involved they got. When the lights came on at the end of the film, I knew that that was going to be the moment when we knew if we'd done it or not. Viviane and Bianca were obviously very emotional, and Viviane was crying. But she looked at me, found a smile and said simply: 'You guys did it.' I think the film gave the perfect balance between the genius and the man.

After that, there have been some amazing ancillary things happening. Ron Dennis came to see an earlier cut of the film. He gave us his thoughts and said, 'you're on the right track – it's not quite there yet.' We knew that though. And when he saw the completed version with music and everything, the same version that Viviane had seen a week later, it was a very different Ron. At the end he just sat there and cried because it's such a powerful series of memories about McLaren and about the time.

Jeremy Clarkson came to see an early cut too. He said he just didn't get what we were up to with the beginning of the film – the mention of 'pure driving' – as he just didn't quite see where that would fit in. Then he said you get to the end and you see it's the final candy wrapper, and I think he's exactly right.

Senna created total F1. He created it on the track, he created it with his mechanics, he created it technically and he created it off the track. I think very rarely does someone create kind of a paradigm shift in what they do. And forget about F1. For him, it was the need to take this car to that limit – not really to show he was the biggest man in the paddock.

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Vivianne Senna (left) and the Senna Foundation has backed the film © sutton-images.com

We wanted the Senna film to be a cinema experience and, believe it or not, the film plays best to women aged 35-44. That is the exact type of audience you would never imagine would want to go and see a film like this. It's hard to get them in, but when they come in, they're upset by it, they're inspired by it and they're really emotionally engaged.

For people who don't know about Senna, the film is an absolute revelation because they don't know anything about this story. They don't know that he's going to die and you're seeing women in their 60s getting it suddenly. They're suddenly realising what the trajectory of the film is and they start becoming more and more uncomfortable.

I saw this woman at the Sundance Film Festival, and I watched her expression during the last lap. I was just looking at her face and, when the car hits the wall at Tamburello and bounces back, she had her face buried in her hands. You could see she started crying then and she didn't stop. About a third of the people there were that upset.

I saw gaggles of women in their 60s saying: 'do you think it was right to change the rules at the end of '93? Maybe they shouldn't have switched the regulations - why did they do it?' That's amazing for non-F1 fans.

I love F1 and I’ve got so much out of it just watching and reading about it. I really hope we can give something back to the sport because lots of people are seeing this film and saying I didn't like F1, but now I'm going to watch it.

Manish Pandey was speaking to Jonathan Noble. Special thanks to Sean Carson.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Maverick le 07 Juin 2011, 19:54

:good
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Re: Senna

Messagede Seb le 07 Juin 2011, 22:34

Ouais_supère a écrit:Image

C'est quand même vachement plus beau qu'aujourd'hui.
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Re: Senna

Messagede The Stig le 08 Juin 2011, 01:36

Je me suis fait la même réflexion quand j'ai vu l'image. D'autant plus qu'on a pourtant des slicks. Mais bon, avec les nez hauts et les ailerons arrière actuels, c'est déjà dur de s'approcher de quelque chose d'esthétique ...
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Re: Senna

Messagede Nuvo le 08 Juin 2011, 08:32

Oui c'est vrai qu'il y a des belles photos là; La McLaren de 1991 est l'une de mes préférées. Très simple.
Quand on voit l'horreur de 1995-1996...
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Re: Senna

Messagede 1er tigre le 08 Juin 2011, 10:21

De ce que je vois le film est toujours projeté dans les 3 mêmes salles, pour la 3e semaine consécutive.
Ça n'a pas l'air de tourner donc. :?
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ghinzani le 08 Juin 2011, 10:25

Seb a écrit:
Ouais_supère a écrit:Image

C'est quand même vachement plus beau qu'aujourd'hui.

:good
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Re: Senna

Messagede Nuvo le 08 Juin 2011, 10:56

1er tigre a écrit:De ce que je vois le film est toujours projeté dans les 3 mêmes salles, pour la 3e semaine consécutive.
Ça n'a pas l'air de tourner donc. :?


Il faut dire qu'avec les 24h au Mans cette semaine et les nombreux passages en anglais, ils vont peut etre remplir la salle ici vendredi et ce week end !
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Re: Senna

Messagede Joe le 08 Juin 2011, 12:35

Merci ouais_supère pour les papiers d'Autosport, c'est toujours intéressant. 8-)

Ca n'est pas directement lié a Senna, mais je me demande comment les choses se seraient passées, surtout pour Brundle, si jamais c'était lui le champion F3 en 83, et non pas le brésilien.
Même avec la différence de talent existante, il a quand même attendu très très longtemps avant d'avoir un bon baquet, surtout qu'a l'époque, c'était quand même relativement plus facile d'en avoir un, ce qui rend ça encore plus curieux.
De l'autre coté, tu te dis que Senna, même s'il n'aurait pas été sacré, aurait été reconnu aussi rapidement et tout aussi rapidement devenu une vedette.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Aym le 08 Juin 2011, 12:50

Joe a écrit: même s'il n'aurait pas été sacré

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh !
:mad: :evil:
L'informatique n'est pas une science exacte, on n'est jamais à l'abri d'un succès
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ambrose le 08 Juin 2011, 13:04

Joe a écrit:Merci ouais_supère pour les papiers d'Autosport, c'est toujours intéressant. 8-)

Ca n'est pas directement lié a Senna, mais je me demande comment les choses se seraient passées, surtout pour Brundle, si jamais c'était lui le champion F3 en 83, et non pas le brésilien.
Même avec la différence de talent existante, il a quand même attendu très très longtemps avant d'avoir un bon baquet, surtout qu'a l'époque, c'était quand même relativement plus facile d'en avoir un, ce qui rend ça encore plus curieux.
De l'autre coté, tu te dis que Senna, même s'il n'aurait pas été sacré, aurait été reconnu aussi rapidement et tout aussi rapidement devenu une vedette.


Brundle a débuté directement chez Tyrrell en 1984, qui était grosso merdo une écurie du même niveau que Toleman. Donc Brundle sacré devant Senna en 1983, ça n'aurait rien changé.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Bacchus le 08 Juin 2011, 13:29

Aym a écrit:
Joe a écrit: même s'il n'aurait pas été sacré

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh !
:mad: :evil:


Ce qu'il y a de bien, c'est que depuis qu'il n'est plus modérateur, Aym est plus "correcteur". :good
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Re: Senna

Messagede The Stig le 08 Juin 2011, 15:49

Nuvolari a écrit:Oui c'est vrai qu'il y a des belles photos là; La McLaren de 1991 est l'une de mes préférées. Très simple.
Quand on voit l'horreur de 1995-1996...


Au passage puisqu'on poste des articles d'autosport plus, j'imagine que tu as déjà lu celui sur la Jaguar XJR 14 ?
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Re: Senna

Messagede Joe le 08 Juin 2011, 17:01

Aym a écrit:
Joe a écrit: même s'il n'aurait pas été sacré

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh !
:mad: :evil:


Non, mais je me levais a peine après ma sieste... :D
Comment ça c'est pas convaincant ?

Ambrose a écrit:
Brundle a débuté directement chez Tyrrell en 1984, qui était grosso merdo une écurie du même niveau que Toleman. Donc Brundle sacré devant Senna en 1983, ça n'aurait rien changé.


Même si Alboreto a gagné un GP urbain en 83, c'est un peu prendre un raccourci de dire que c'étaient des équipes d'un niveau équivalent, je pense.
Toleman était une équipe du milieu de grille en progression, des résultats prometteurs, avec un turbo, alors que Tyrrell (et les atmos en général) n'en finissait plus de perdre des places au fur et a mesure que les turbos étaient optimisés et fiabilisés.

Après, y a le coté choix de carrière et options disponibles, mais y a aussi ce qui se passe dans la tête. Même si le titre lui échappe, je ne pense pas que l'échec entrave la marche en avant d'un gars comme Senna. Je dirais peut-être même que l'échec décuple la motivation d'un type pareil.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ambrose le 08 Juin 2011, 17:42

Joe a écrit:Même si Alboreto a gagné un GP urbain en 83, c'est un peu prendre un raccourci de dire que c'étaient des équipes d'un niveau équivalent, je pense.
Toleman était une équipe du milieu de grille en progression, des résultats prometteurs, avec un turbo, alors que Tyrrell (et les atmos en général) n'en finissait plus de perdre des places au fur et a mesure que les turbos étaient optimisés et fiabilisés.


C'est pour ça que je dis "grosso merdo" parce que la comparaison est forcément bancale. M'enfin l'idée est là.

Joe a écrit:Après, y a le coté choix de carrière et options disponibles, mais y a aussi ce qui se passe dans la tête. Même si le titre lui échappe, je ne pense pas que l'échec entrave la marche en avant d'un gars comme Senna. Je dirais peut-être même que l'échec décuple la motivation d'un type pareil.


De toutes façons, faut pas se faire d'illusion, la F1 de 1984 est la même que celle de 2011, à savoir que les succès dans les formules de promotion ne changent pas grand chose à une carrière et que ce sont les soutiens budgétaires qui font la différence. Son volant chez Toleman, Senna l'a obtenu grâce au soutien de sponsors brésiliens et s'il avait terminé vice-champion, je doute que ces sponsors l'auraient laché. Donc il aurait quand même décroché son volant chez Toleman. Quant à Brundle, même sacré champion, compte tenu du marché, je vois pas bien ce qu'il aurait pu espérer de mieux qu'un volant chez Tyrrell en arrivant comme ça directement de la F3 sans passer par la F2.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ouais_supère le 22 Juin 2011, 10:00

Pour ceux que ça intéresse, le documentaire sur Senna sera projeté pour deux séances à Marseille, au Cinéma le Prado, le 5 juillet, 19h30 et 21h30.

Bon, je me doute que je suis le seul con à habiter cette ville de merde, mais ça peut intéresser les gens aux alentours.
Si, évidemment, ça les branche de venir dans cette ville de merde pour un documentaire (de merde?).
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ghinzani le 22 Juin 2011, 10:14

Merci Manu pour ces belles images. :wink:
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ambrose le 22 Juin 2011, 11:09

Je l'ai vu et je confirme que ce film ne présente aucun intérêt.

Quasiment pas d'images inédites (c'est essentiellement une compil des retransmissions TV d'époque, et bien evidemment les images les plus connues), et une hagiographie de Senna à la limite du grotesque : en gros, c'est le meilleur, et quand les autres gagnent, c'est soit parce qu'ils trichent (Prost discute avec Balestre, forcément, c'est pour comploter contre Senna) soit parce que leurs écuries trichent (bouh la vilaine Williams pleine d'électronique de Mansell, et bouh la vilaine Benetton pleine d'électronique de Schumacher).

Filer un prix à un film réalisé par des mecs qui non seulement ne connaissent pas la F1 (bon, il n'y a pas d'erreur historique, mais le réalisateur raconte ce qu'on a bien voulu lui dire) et dont le travail s'est limité à faire du repérage sur youtube, c'est quand même du foutage de gueule.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Feyd le 22 Juin 2011, 12:05

Merci pour cet avis de plus. Je ne regarderai pas ce film de propagande.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Rainier le 22 Juin 2011, 14:04

Feyd a écrit:Merci pour cet avis de plus. Je ne regarderai pas ce film de propagande.


par contre on attend toujours (et on risque d'attendre très longtemps) un film sur Prost.
Pilote dont la carrière a été au moins aussi riche que celle de Senna, et la personnalité probablement plus complexe.
la démocratie et la souveraineté nationale sont comme l’avers et le revers d’une même médaille.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Aiello le 22 Juin 2011, 14:08

Rainier a écrit:
Feyd a écrit:Merci pour cet avis de plus. Je ne regarderai pas ce film de propagande.


par contre on attend toujours (et on risque d'attendre très longtemps) un film sur Prost.
Pilote dont la carrière a été au moins aussi riche que celle de Senna, et la personnalité probablement plus complexe.


Mais comme il n'est pas mort, ce n'est pas une légende. :D
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Re: Senna

Messagede Lo le 22 Juin 2011, 14:11

Ben le film de Senna est aussi un film sur Prost. On y apprend que c'était un magouilleur et qu'il ne gagnait que grâce à son sens de la politique.
Depuis que Senna est devenu un dieu, par ricochet Prost est soit lui aussi un dieu, soit il était au niveau de Senna uniquement grâce à son caractère perfide et comploteur.
Enfin, le pire moment est passé, le moi de mai où tous les abrutis qui ont beatifié le brésilien chafouin se sentent obligés de commémorer sa tragique disparition par tous les moyens possibles.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Rainier le 22 Juin 2011, 14:25

Lo a écrit:Ben le film de Senna est aussi un film sur Prost. On y apprend que c'était un magouilleur et qu'il ne gagnait que grâce à son sens de la politique.
Depuis que Senna est devenu un dieu, par ricochet Prost est soit lui aussi un dieu, soit il était au niveau de Senna uniquement grâce à son caractère perfide et comploteur.
Enfin, le pire moment est passé, le moi de mai où tous les abrutis qui ont beatifié le brésilien chafouin se sentent obligés de commémorer sa tragique disparition par tous les moyens possibles.


Oui, Prost a acquis une réputation de magouilleur, on ne sait pas trop comment (sans doute par maladresse) car dans les faits il a souvent été le dindon de la farce.
Par exemple, le fameux épisode Arnoux-Prost au GP de France alors qu'ils étaient tous les deux chez Renault.
Pour 99% des personnes, Arnoux a dominé cette course et Prost a eu le mauvais rôle : dominé en course, favorisé par son team qui demande à Arnoux de le laisser gagner, mauvais perdant etc.
Alors que ce jour là, les consignes d"équipe avaient été clairement définies AVANT le départ et Prost n'avait donc aucune raison de prendre des risques avec sa mécanique et son employeur.
Arnoux pouvait se montrer parfois très rapide, m'enfin il ne jouait pas souvent dans la même division que Prost.

Même chose qq années plus tard avec Senna à Imola.

La vérité est souvent bien loin de ce qu'on essaye de nous inculquer en politique comme en sport.
Prost a toujours été un homme de parole.
Pour trouver des petits comploteurs ou des personnes perfides (à qui on ne peut faire confiance), il faut plutôt aller du côté d'Arnoux et de Senna.
la démocratie et la souveraineté nationale sont comme l’avers et le revers d’une même médaille.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Chris76 le 22 Juin 2011, 16:21

Rainier a écrit:
Lo a écrit:Ben le film de Senna est aussi un film sur Prost. On y apprend que c'était un magouilleur et qu'il ne gagnait que grâce à son sens de la politique.
Depuis que Senna est devenu un dieu, par ricochet Prost est soit lui aussi un dieu, soit il était au niveau de Senna uniquement grâce à son caractère perfide et comploteur.
Enfin, le pire moment est passé, le moi de mai où tous les abrutis qui ont beatifié le brésilien chafouin se sentent obligés de commémorer sa tragique disparition par tous les moyens possibles.


Oui, Prost a acquis une réputation de magouilleur, on ne sait pas trop comment (sans doute par maladresse) car dans les faits il a souvent été le dindon de la farce.
Par exemple, le fameux épisode Arnoux-Prost au GP de France alors qu'ils étaient tous les deux chez Renault.
Pour 99% des personnes, Arnoux a dominé cette course et Prost a eu le mauvais rôle : dominé en course, favorisé par son team qui demande à Arnoux de le laisser gagner, mauvais perdant etc.
Alors que ce jour là, les consignes d"équipe avaient été clairement définies AVANT le départ et Prost n'avait donc aucune raison de prendre des risques avec sa mécanique et son employeur.
Arnoux pouvait se montrer parfois très rapide, m'enfin il ne jouait pas souvent dans la même division que Prost.

Même chose qq années plus tard avec Senna à Imola.

La vérité est souvent bien loin de ce qu'on essaye de nous inculquer en politique comme en sport.
Prost a toujours été un homme de parole.
Pour trouver des petits comploteurs ou des personnes perfides (à qui on ne peut faire confiance), il faut plutôt aller du côté d'Arnoux et de Senna.


A l'époque, Arnoux avait mes faveurs. A tord manifestement, sachant maintenant que sur ce GP en particulier, son moteur avait été boosté par Renault en vue de jouer le lièvre face aux BMW plus fragiles. Les armes n'étaient pas égales.

Prost reste le meilleur à mes yeux. Mais un français qui gagne, à l'époque, ca passait mal...

RHE champion 2018 ! Go Dragons !

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Re: Senna

Messagede sheon le 23 Juin 2011, 20:56

Rainier a écrit:Pour trouver des petits comploteurs ou des personnes perfides (à qui on ne peut faire confiance), il faut plutôt aller du côté d'Arnoux et de Senna.

Senna, un comploteur ? Mouais. A mon avis, ses conneries, ils les faisaient d'instinct, sur le coup de la colère ou de la frustration (exemple avec Suzuka 90, où il ne semblait pas si content de lui après coup). C'était pas vraiment prémédité.
Si j'avais souvent répété que je désirais mourir dans mon lit, ce que je voulais vraiment dire par là, c'est que je voulais me faire marcher dessus par un éléphant pendant que je ferais l'amour. Les Fusils d'Avalon, Roger Zelazny.
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Re: Senna

Messagede Ambrose le 23 Juin 2011, 21:19

sheon a écrit:
Rainier a écrit:Pour trouver des petits comploteurs ou des personnes perfides (à qui on ne peut faire confiance), il faut plutôt aller du côté d'Arnoux et de Senna.

Senna, un comploteur ?


Pourquoi crois-tu que De Angelis le surnommait "Le Petit Machiavel" ?
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